David Taylor catches up with We Made That’s Holly Lewis about London’s high streets, post-pandemic; a new era for industrial intensification; and B Corp status being a boon to recruitment.

David Taylor  

Hi, Holly, how are you doing?

 

Good, thanks, David. How are you?

 

I'm very good. I've got a packed programme of questions to ask you about a lot of different issues. So, I thought I'd just fire away very quickly with a question about the work you're doing and have been doing for a long time, really, about high streets. 

You did a report some time ago which asked questions about what to do with empty, large format retail units, how we can adapt to the experience economy, and how we can embed community participation in high streets. And I know you're now working on the ground in places like Maidstone, and Basildon and Hackney Central – where you've been shortlisted for an NLA award upcoming. How has that research been translating onto the ground? And what are you seeing in general, would you say, in terms of how high streets are responding, perhaps, to the pandemic, when high streets were a different fare?

 

Yes, I think it's a really interesting question. It's been a line of investigation for us at We Made That for a while. So one of the earliest studies that we worked on was looking at the social value of high streets and kind of flying the flag for the fact that high streets are this incredibly important resource for people to come together, to meet friends, the social side of them, that has perhaps been, I guess, subservient to the economic side of what high streets do for a long time. So, we're always talking about shopping and retail and footfall. But not so much talking about that communal experience of being in high streets, in town centres that’s just so important. And that is the experience economy, really, on some level, it's like going to have a nice time - if you're having a nice time, you're going to spend longer, and then maybe you do spend a bit more money, but you're valuing that place. So, there was a sort of strategic thinking about that. But then for us, that's turned into quite a lot of interesting delivery work, which has been really curious. So funded through things like the Levelling Up fund, there’s quite a lot of capital money going into high streets, and town centres. So, in places like Basildon that's a screen industry hub that we're working on in an old cinema building - it is also the British Heart Foundation. So quite a big, large format retail unit, with this imagined future use, which is about education, about bringing the community together and having a place to experience and have fun. And I guess likewise, the other places that we've been working Hackney Central also, as you've mentioned, fingers crossed for the end of this year! (laughs) But we also supported them with their Levelling Up funding, which was successful from central government. And so, the work there is supporting things like Healthy Streets, but also reusing units that have been empty for cultural and creative and civic uses. So actually, what we're just finding is that there's a much broader range of uses that are crying out for space. And high streets are a really brilliant place to put that, just not retail so much anymore. But it's really interesting to see that translating into real projects.

 

And to what degree is tempering the motor car and making these high streets a bit less of a hostile place to negotiate been part of that whole overall picture, would you say?

 

It's definitely part of that overall picture. It's definitely part of that picture in Hackney. I guess we have to temper it a little bit to different political climates, depending on you know, the powers that be in the places where we're working. But for us, it's a vitally important thing. And it's kind of a no-brainer, actually (laughs). We can all agree that safety is important; we can all agree that clean air is important. We can all agree that being able to get around easily, independently is important. So, it does seem...

 

...well, you say that, but then you look at how the ULEZ is faring politically, don't you, on the ground and even things like the 15-minute-city concept, which has suddenly become unpopular in some circles. How do you view that as interfacing with the work you do? (pause) That's a tricky one, isn't it?

 

I think that the way that the 15-minute city is spoken about it bears little or no resemblance to how it's manifested in the places where we're working. I think it's a trumped-up conspiracy (laughs) thing that doesn't bear any resemblance to what's really happening on the ground. All they're saying is, it's nice if you can walk or cycle to places you want to get to. And that doesn't seem so controversial. I actually think that the by-election results recently show that this thing about people who are being victimized doesn't hold true. I don't think it plays out in elections. And yeah, I do think that the Uxbridge result was slightly over exaggerated, how important that ULEZ was in that outcome? Because in many ways, it was quite a good turnout - there was a big change in the in the vote proportion for Labour. So maybe it's been a bit overstated. I think people are getting a bit hot under the collar about something, which is kind of a non-issue, if you just say, it's important that people feel safe and can breathe clean air.

 

And how do you I mean, looking back through the pandemic period, when as I mentioned before that high streets were a slightly different place when they were everywhere. It was a slightly different place, then. How do you think they've fared and what have the patterns been since then?

 

I think that the recurring word that people are using for how the pandemic has affected high streets is ‘acceleration’, rather than any new trend. So, people were already shopping online; people were already looking for having a good experience. The reason that you would go to a town centre, as compared with an out-of-town retail park is the quality of the environment; how often it is a nice place to spend your day, rather than just hop in the car and get the things that you need. And all of that was already there. I think it just underlines the importance and the significance of those kind of issues. Public health, in a way I think, is becoming a bigger and bigger factor in the way that we're taking decisions about the future of places. And if it took the pandemic to draw our attention to that, then I think we have to take that as a positive direction. Like a tap on the shoulder. 

 

So, quick gear change, then, to another of your key areas of interest, which is industrial intensification. You've just produced a really nice short film about the whole topic. Why do you think now it's finally gaining some currency in London? And why do you think we it's taken so long for us to appreciate this need?

 

I think the appreciation of the need is because for such a long time, delivering new homes has been such an overwhelming agenda, particularly in London, that that's kind of trumped everything else. And in a way there've been clues about, well hang on a minute, if you were changing all of our industrial space unemployment, basically exaggerating. But if you're changing it into residential uses, then what have you lost, what are the threats associated with that? And I think at that strategic level that's been considered. But practically what we do about it has been ideas and theories and drawings for a while. And what's happened, and the reason that now is a really interesting time to kind of pause and reflect - and thanks for mentioning the film, because I think the moment for that is now, because we see these schemes coming to fruition, that they've been delivered on the ground, largely, at the moment, at least the ones that have opened with public sector support. So, one of the schemes that we featured is Industria in Barking, which is by Howarth Tompkins, that we had a bit of involvement in the early-stage brief shaping of that. And that's really significant scale, multi-level industrial. Likewise, the Charlton Works, again, with a bit of public sector support, slightly lighter, smaller scale industrial there. But these things where we've definitely had conversations in the past where people think businesses just don't want to be on the upper level of these buildings. We're just not used to that in London, don't like it, it rings bells in relation to, I guess, snootiness about living in flats compared with houses. It's that kind of thing, like what people do. It's not how people want to live; it's not what people want. But actually, these schemes are delivered, and we will be able to see them being inhabited, being used, being occupied, and to be there, they are fantastically high quality, great environmental performance, really brilliant spaces to run a business from. So, I'm really excited. And we're really excited to see how they get occupied. And there are private sector schemes equivalent to those coming forward too so it feels like a bit of a tipping point, having been slightly kind of navel gazing and twiddling our thumbs and thinking like: “Well, we think we know this is what needs to happen next”. With this public sector support behind and all of that knowledge and thinking that's gone in the past, the schemes are there now. And that's basically happening. in this fortnight that we're in! (laughs) It's very contemporary! So that's why this moment is interesting and important.

 

Has there been a bit of a perception issue about, dirt and grubbiness, and so on, of these environments? That sort of a myth or a misconception. And has that held things back?

 

Yeah, definitely, definitely, I think there is a kind of snootiness around industrial areas. And in some ways, that has been self-fulfilling, like we've planned our city around keeping industrial areas separated from other bits of the city. So, we don't live in them. They're not particularly mixed, they are often quite intimidating, maybe they don't feel particularly safe. They're kind of grubby, they're dominated by vehicles. And there are these anonymous sheds, and you don't really know what's going on inside them. The truth is that when you go in there and have a look around and through our research team at We Made That we've done that in 1000s of businesses across the country, really, is that there is fascinating stuff going on there. We see the whole spectrum from, I mean, it might be waste processing and aggregates that are kind of grubby at the most difficult end, but loads of really interesting making, logistics, food production, clothes, fabric, all kinds of creative things happening in there, too. And all of that spectrum of the economy is absolutely integrable; should be a fixed part of a productive city. And I guess schemes like Lockwood Way, which is also featured in the film, are trying to say industrial areas have slightly different spatial needs. They need a bit of a bigger share – you do need to be able to sometimes get vehicles around them. But actually, on that particular industrial estate there are a couple of breweries, roofers, granite worktop suppliers, a winery and at the weekend, it has a completely different life where during the week, it's productive, industrial, and at the weekend, you have somewhere to go and get a beer and buy some bread (laughs). And that's personally quite exciting. And I think that friendly side of what's happening in industrial areas hasn't been celebrated enough or recognized enough. And it all plays into the same picture, which is: let's think about how these industrial areas can be positive, pleasant places to be, rather than ostracized.

 

Now, final question in our in our whistle-stop tour of your work, you've been a B Corp, I think for over a year now. So how has it been? And would you recommend it to other practices out there?

 

For us it has been great. It's really, really nice to be prompted to think more about yourself, like a bit of self-reflection, I think is often good, and B Corp does that as a business. It's a little bit like an MOT – taps on the tires and checks that everything is okay and where it should be and gives you some really helpful measures that are applicable to all businesses. So, I think that's been great. And it forces us to focus on the things that are important, I think.

 

Anything surprising?

 

Um... (pause). Anything surprising? There were some things which are actually not quite the just the B Corp process, but this thing of stepping back and reflecting what have we done. So, a few years ago, we said we need more work outside of London, we're really very London focused, and it would be better to hedge our bets a little bit more. And we know that we've been trying to do that. But then when we look at where our projects are this year, we're 51% outside of London; that's good! (laughs) That's what we wanted to do! So, it's just that moment of reflection, strategically, and then having the chance to kind of step back and go: have you done that, or not? I think that without the B Corp process, you're just caught up in the day-to-day, aren't you? Just keeping going with the projects, keeping everything working?  But that moment of stepping back and saying, what is it that we want to achieve? Are we doing it? How do we kind of consider that importance, has been brilliant. I would definitely recommend that other people look into it, and at least do the first impact assessment and see how you get on. I think it's a real eye opener as to how you compare with others in your sector, but also businesses in general. And we definitely see that when we're recruiting, it's noticed. We're interviewing people that are specifically saying: I'm interested in applying for the role because you're a B Corp. And that's surprising. It's competitive out there, isn't it? (laughs) If it gives you a bit of an edge on getting the right people in, then that's great.

 

Well, thank you very much for that whistle-stop tour, and congratulations on all the work. And good luck in the awards!

 

Thanks very much! Good to talk to you.

 

And you!