Hi, Imro, how are you? 

I'm okay, David, thanks very much for asking – miserable weather in London, but yes, it's common at this time of the year! 

Over the last 25 years or so in which you've been involved in in the London arena, how has it changed from the perspective of Permasteelisa in terms of tall buildings, would you say? What are the main changes? 

When we created the cluster here in the city, the concentration of high-rise buildings, we saw more demand. Luxurious materials are being used, and more and more, sustainability is a topic over the years. But going into contract is becoming more difficult. It takes longer, at least from the supply chain – from us to the main contractors or developers. It takes longer and the documentation itself has changed. It's more protective, which it wasn't in the past. When I started 25 years ago, the contract was signed and we all started building, processing buildings. And now it is way in advance, and it's just different. 

David Taylor  
Yes. And in terms of things like safety, has that changed, in your view, since Grenfell, etc?

Imro van Leersum 
Yes, for sure. I mean, personal safety on site, in terms of working on height and on ledges; that has increased. Knowledge about the do's and don'ts has increased, the Grenfell Tower fire, in particular, has put into perspective what is built and the potential consequences. Current UK regulations are making things difficult but that is for a reason. We must all do better when it comes to discussing how we move forward in line with regulations without the delays. I am by no means diminishing the Grenfell accident; it was a very tragic event from which we must learn. But the measures currently taken are causing extreme delays, which we could all contribute to changing. 

Sure. I'm just looking over your firm's history in terms of the projects that it's been involved with, and it's incredible. Right from the Bank of China tower in Hong Kong through to Commerzbank, Sydney Opera House even, and the World Trade Centre. And then, if you look through to some of your recent projects, again, it's pretty amazing, in terms of London, especially, working on schemes like 22 Bishopsgate, Bloomberg and the Shard. You seem to have been connected to most of the high-profile projects in the world. Why is that? Is that just because your expertise is so highly regarded? 

Imro van Leersum 

It is the knowledge we have, and that we have built up in house. It's recognised by the industry that we are front-running and leading the façade industry by its technology, like with the Shard you mentioned, like the Sydney Opera House, 22 Bishopsgate, Bloomberg. We consider ourselves as façade specialists. So whatever luxurious material will be used or can be used, we’re on it. It's an extra dimension to the tool for us, an extra motivation to get more involved. For instance, with Bloomberg, you have fins in a special shape that can only be made in one place on the globe, and that gives a certain attraction to it. Not all companies in the façade industry are capable or are willing to take the risks or have the technical knowledge to implement them. 

Do you see trends come and go within this arena, in terms particularly of the materials that are used in façades? 

Imro van Leersum 

Yes, but we have limited influence on that. It is, of course, the architect who sets the scene of the materials they favour, or which they are thinking are right for the location. So, in that sense, we have a bit of a passive approach. But once the decision is made, we actively respond to that in terms of integrating the pros and cons of these materials to be integrated into our sub elements. So, you see a change from GFC, there's the likes of terracotta, then glass, aluminium. So, there is a trend; it is like our day-to-day fashions are changing, but they are led by the architects, and we can only inform them from a technical and commercial aspect, for the do's and don'ts. 

You mentioned the cluster in London, and that's been a reasonably recent phenomenon. How do you see its emergence, and what are your views on it as a silhouette? 

As a silhouette, it's halfway there. There are further developments ongoing, to build, to finish up the cluster as it is. It's still growing. The intention is, more and more becoming more centralised as the city, and that's, that's also for the future, so for me, the next three-to-five-year view is that that we will see more and more identified high-rise buildings being realised by the industry. 

One of the buildings that you worked on, just as an aside, was 20 Fenchurch Street, commonly referred to as the ‘Walkie Talkie’, which had an issue with some of its façades in 2013, I think it was, when it reflected rays back onto Eastcheap and almost melted a car, I think, just dimly recollecting. I mean, you guys worked on that. How did you sort that one out? 

Yes, when the event happened, we got together with the architect and the developer to find the reason, the cause of it, and that was because it became really magnifying and concentrating heat on Eastcheap. So, we contributed by retrofitting bris soleils on part of the elevation to break down the sun effect, the magnifying effect. That was the technical solution. It was not an easy solution, but we managed, with all our top engineers, to solve that problem, for the City, for the user, for the tenant, and, of course, so we don't have these sorts of things for the car owners in the City of London. 

Had you ever heard of this sort of thing happening anywhere in the world before? 

No, it's unique evidence for us. We were not involved in any of this. But its shape... in hindsight, we could have been a bit more precautious advising the architect and the developer. But yes, expect the unexpected!  It was a unique event. 

So, looking forward, you're working on 50 Fenchurch Street for Multiplex and 60 Gracechurch Street. Those are your key projects in London at the moment, in terms of tall buildings. Where do you see the future going in this particular area, and in terms of façades? 

Well, those two projects you mentioned, 50 Fenchurch and 60 Gracechurch are considered as part of the cluster. So, what you will see is that you will have more integration of planters, the green effect, to be in there. So that's something you will see on 60 Gracechurch - it is the first of many where it is being integrated. 50 Fenchurch Street is unique in its kind, in terms of its location, and the church being in there. I mean, we publicised a number of items together with Multiplex: that old that building needs to be there, maintained whilst we do a complex construction down there. And that's one of many. We also need to mention Bankside Yards. That's one of the tallest residential towers in the city centre of London. So, we see a mix and reduced mix of commercials versus residential, but also due to the regulations. I think that's going to be the crux - that is, do we only want to have commercial buildings in the city centre, or is there a place and room for residential, and also affordable residential for London? 

So, last question, what's the building that is your favourite, that you've particularly been associated with or worked on, and why? 

It's 8 Bishopsgate, next to 22 Bishopsgate. For me that was a was a point in my personal career, where there was a change of management, back in the days within Scheldebouw, the Dutch organisation where I was on my own from a sales pitch point of view, giving it all I could with my team, and we were successfully awarded the project. For me, it's an icon, contributes to the city, and of course, it has that personal history with that particular building. 

Great. And what are you looking forward to over the next decade in terms of this area as a very final question. Do you think we will be going higher? How will buildings mutate specifically in London in terms of tall buildings? 

I think we will not be going higher, but I think we will have a higher intensity of buildings. So, we will have more towers, rather than one sticking out at say 800 metres, for instance. So, it will be an intention to have a real cluster, with different architectural signatures. So, it will not be a monotone block of glass blocks in there. London itself has always been known for deviation, be it in material or in colour. That's how I see the future, and also with an increased sustainability effect. So, we're going to reuse material, or be conscious of the materials to be used. 

Perfect. Well, thank you very much for your time, Imro. That was a fascinating look at the world of tall buildings and your own firm, Permasteelisa.

Imro van Leersum 

Okay. Thank you much for your time. Thanks David!