Hello, Rick. How are you? 

I'm good, thanks, David. How are you? 

I'm very good, thank you. Congratulations, first of all, on your new role. I think you've been in post seven weeks now. What are your experiences so far of the firm; what, indeed, is the goal, and what are your ambitions for the role? 

Sure. So, I guess the first thing I'd like to say is, seven weeks in, I've been incredibly impressed by the amazing people that work for Cumming Group. Not only have they given me an exceptionally warm welcome, but I'm really encouraged by the calibre and the determination and the mindset of the people that work there. There's some fantastic people spread all across the country, and they really, really do have the intention to do a good job for their clients. So that's the kind of number one impression. I think that as I as I look ahead, it's really clear to me that, especially in the sorts of market conditions that we're in at the moment, that any consultancy organisation, but Cumming Group especially, needs to really sharpen our offer. We need to really understand what it is that we're offering our clients, and provide something that is more than traditional consultancy services. So, a big part of my role and joining the organisation has been around what that could look like for us as a business. 

In terms of sharpening it, could you explain what you do offer the world in a nutshell, in terms of your unique selling proposition, your USP. 

Sure. So, Cumming Group's core business is project management, commercial management, and building surveying, to a variety of sectors. I look after the real estate sector, which covers markets such as hospitality, residential, retail. But we also do a lot of work in more industrial environments. We work for FM organisations who are looking after typically government estates and other kind of regulated sectors. So quite a broad span, as a consequence. The wider services that we offer that are emerging is we also consult on capital allowances, which is how you manage appropriate taxation in construction, and we're developing a - I'm going to call it project intelligence - but a PMO project controls-type offering, so that clients understand where they are on their projects and what interventions are needed to achieve the outcomes that they want. So, it's a quite broad span professional services offer. I think when I say that we need to sharpen our offer, what I mean by that is, one, rather than being scared by artificial intelligence, we need to embrace it and use it for its positives in terms of giving clients better insights and better data and better analysis. I also think that clients now want two things. One is consultants who are, for want of a better term, orientated towards their outcomes, so they're helping them achieve what it is that they're trying to achieve in a partnership type arrangement, rather than just administering their projects for them. And secondly, I think the market is asking for consultants to take a degree of appropriate delivery risk, or at least be invested in the success of the project in a way that means something to the client. 

There's lots to unpack there, really. You touched on market conditions briefly, but also AI, and you mentioned that people sometimes are scared of it. Do you mean within the construction industry broadly? And could you reflect on those market conditions a little more? 

Sure. So, to tackle the AI side first. Firstly, I think that artificial intelligence is no substitute for real intelligence. What the markets need, what construction needs, is people who have been there, done it, are capable, have experience, can work with people, can bring people together to achieve great things, and there is no way of recreating any of that artificially. I think where there is a reticence towards AI is a worry that it will replace people's jobs, and actually, I see it the other way around. I see that the demand for professional people in the built environment is such that we can't afford not to use it because we need people doing the right things, which isn't sat behind laptops crunching numbers that need to be driving the success of projects. So that's where I think we're carefully considering how we can use it for the betterment of the industry. In terms of market conditions, there's no single story here. I think if I zoom right out, there is no doubt in my mind that certain markets have plateaued in the last year or so. What we're seeing is in the last 12 months some stagnation, certainly in hospitality and residential type markets. Albeit there are some green shoots that that market is starting to recover in central London 

Both markets? 

Yeah, I'd say. Certainly residential 

Really? 

...is starting to attract some investment, and so is hospitality.  we have a part of our business which is focused on workplace, so offices. Offices is a complex picture, often depending on yields and various other investment indicators. But again, I think there is a demand for high-quality offices in locations such as Central London, and organisations are starting to move. I think the big thing in those sectors is the Building Safety Act has obviously had an impact in terms of time, and many schemes have been stuck going through Gateway approvals, and that seems to be getting better. So, the hope is that some of those schemes will be unlocked, and I guess our hope as an organisation supporting them is that they don't all unlock at the same time and then create a level of demand that the market's unable to support. 

Are you seeing positive green shoots in London specifically? 

I think we are. Yes, I think we are. But I think the other place that we're obviously orientating ourselves to is in more public sector environments. 

Yes. 

There is huge addressable spend in defence and significant addressable spend in healthcare. Those are two markets that we want to be involved in, and I think we can bring something to, and the spending in that space is real. Defence spending is genuine, and obviously I was recently involved in the new hospitals programme, and whilst the new hospitals themselves are a massive part of what the healthcare market looks like, the sort of left shift, if you like, towards more community care, and recent announcements around what the future might look like for a national care system, I think will all stimulate that marketplace. 

Yes. How was it working on that programme with the NHS? You were there a few years, weren't you? 

Yes. I mean, at its heart, it's incredible, because being involved in programmes like that which are doing some genuine social good is something that anybody involved in it should be really, really proud of. And I'm proud of the time that I spent there. I think the scale of that endeavour is huge. You're attempting to deliver so many large-scale hospital developments in waves that are so significant in value and complexity will be extremely demanding, and everybody involved in that programme I think wrestles with just how enormous the capital programme is. The thing that I think really stands out in that programme, though, is that it's not just a construction programme. A massive part of that programme was healthcare orientated. How you transform the operational approach that we take to running hospitals and to make sure that that's set up for the future in a way that predicts demand and capacity, the sorts of accommodation that you need and the scale of the hospitals, which in itself is difficult too. So that makes that programme quite unique, I think, because it's so connected to societal trends and the demands of the future, which makes it really important. 

Just a couple of last things. In my research on the company, I learned that it was established in 1996, which is quite recent, isn't it? But you already have 70 offices across the globe, which strikes me as extraordinarily sharp growth. Is that through acquisition, and if it is, is there more on the horizon, do you know? 

So, Cumming Group's growth story is absolutely incredible. I'm focused on the UK, especially at the moment, and we've got offices across the country. The growth has been borne out of both acquisition and organic growth in different locations, and I'd say the two are matched in terms of their scale and quantum. The thing that's been really important to me in joining the business, though, has been where we have acquired businesses and brought them into Cumming Group, is that we then integrate them properly, and we respect the reasons why we have bought the businesses, but we also bring us together under a common purpose and a common banner with ways of working that fit a business model that's properly integrated. That's a big part of the challenge that I'm facing now, which is how we bring otherwise disparate capabilities together under one real estate offering, so that we can provide something that's of scale and is compelling to clients. 

And lastly, I noticed from when your appointment was announced, you're extremely popular! You've got many likes on the Bible that is LinkedIn, and one person even called you 'an absolute legend'. 

(laughs) 

So, Cumming Group's clearly got good hands on the tiller! 

Well, I'd like to think so. I wouldn't comment on my own popularity, 

(laughs) 

...but what I would say is throughout my career. I have been so fortunate to meet so many wonderful people that I've built a relationship with, either through the projects - and I know this might appeal to you, David - or by doing silly things like riding bikes a long way or climb mountains. 

Oh, do you? Okay. 

Oh yes. Once upon a time, I organised the Tour de Mace in a previous life, which was from Manchester Velodrome to London Olympic Park. 

Wow! 

And when I was in Bovis a long time ago, I was secretary of the Governors Club, which is a charitable foundation that Bovis ran, and all of those things I think create a real sense of togetherness, don't they? They are just wonderful things that we do for charity the industry, but moreover for camaraderie. 

Yes, indeed. Well, best of luck with all of that, and I look forward to a Tour de Cumming in future years! 

(laughs) It's On the horizon! 

All right. Nice to speak to you. 

Thanks, David. Thanks a lot. 

Cheers. Bye.